Interview with Bunny Rogoff by R Givens part 1

Bunny as Charlie Chaplin

Bunny The Rogue aka Pots & Pans
An interview with Bernard "Bunny" Rogoff by Randi Givens © 1993.

R Givens: How did you get your nickname?
Bunny Rogoff: I got the name because when I was about 3 they dressed me
up like a rabbit during Easter. That's when my family began calling me

Bunny. It just stuck.
RG: So you had a nickname before you started playing pool.
BR: Yeah, but my nickname playing pool was Pots and Pans.
RG: How did that happen?
BR: It was my first trip to Johnston City and I was hustling cookware. I

stopped in the Show Bar about three days before the tournament and

some guy offered to play for $40 against the cookware. I was paying

$20 for the cookware, so the guy is laying me 2-1 on the money.

Willie Mosconi can't beat me giving odds like that. Anyway, I beat the

fellow out of the $40 and we began playing for $50 cash instead of the

cookware. I won $500. His name was Louie Reed. He was an oil millionaire

from Ducoin, Illinois. After I beat him, he shook my hand and bought me a

drink. "Man you are the greatest. Where are you from," "I'm from Pittsburgh,"

I told him. "Well, I don't know about that, but you my man, are the

Pots and Pans Man." That name has stuck with me ever since. That

happened over 30 years ago and I'm still known as "Pots and Pans."
RG: What kind of cue do you use?
BR: I always use a house cue off the rack.
RG: What do you look for when you pick a house cue?
BR: Well, I usually sneak my own house cue in.
RG: How did you get started playing pool?
BR: When I was 14 years old, I was walking up the street and I heard

clicking noises. I looked inside and in the back of a barbershop there

were three tables side by side. When the barber wasn't looking, I

walked in the back. It fascinated me when I saw the balls. There was a

fellow about my age practicing, so I started playing with him. The owner,

the barber, didn't know I was back there. Finally, he came back and

saw us playing. I was playing his son. Anyway, they invited me back

and that's when I started playing.
RG: Were you immediately interested?
BR: Oh, yes. I was fascinated right off the get go. Not only that, I

had been hanging around with a bad crowd, so it did me a world

of good. I might have got into some drastic trouble if I hadn't

discovered pool. I was from was the Hill District in Pittsburgh,

a middle class neighborhood, but there were some gangs and kids
getting into trouble. Pool took me away from all that.
RG: That runs contrary to the image of the game. Pool is

supposed to lead people astray, not the other way around.
BR: Right. But, pool kept me out of trouble.
RG: How did your game develop?
BR: My Dad used to give me 50¢ for lunch and I'd hook school

on Fridays. We used to go to the movie, but that opened at 11

in the morning and the pool hall opened at 8. There were other

kids there too and we used to play pool. If you didn't win, you

didn't eat and you didn't go to the movie. So I got under pressure

at an early age, if you know what I mean. I became acclimated to

gambling and playing under pressure.
RG: How did your game progress?
BR: It took a couple of years to become a good shooter. But more

than being a good player, I knew how to get good games.
RG: So within two years, you began playing good?
BR: Yeah. Well, I played my best pool when I came out of the Navy

when I was about 22. I went in the Navy when I was 17. I was in from

1944-46. I came out for a year then I went back in. I put in five years

altogether. I played my best pool when I came out after my second hitch.
RG: What kind of games did you play then?
BR: Mostly 9–ball and 8–ball.
RG: Did anybody teach you how to play?
BR: Nobody showed me anything. I learned by watching and playing

with good players. Anytime I could play a good player, I'd do it. But

they never showed me anything. I just watched them. Of course, I never

gambled with the better players.
RG: If you had an instructor would you have progressed faster?
BR: Oh, definitely! You have to have a certain amount of aptitude,

but it's more practice than anything.
RG: So you reached a professional level when you were 22?
BR: Oh, no. I just played my best 9 ball at that age. I didn't really

learn until later on. About five years after that I learned safety and

all of that. Up until then I just played runout 9 ball. Of course, they

never played one foul then. It was all pushout.
RG: What's the difference between pushout and one foul?
BR: When you play push out you have to be a real good shotmaker.

More so than in one foul.
RG: Did you ever play other games like 3 cushion billiards?
BR: I hit 'em around once in a while, but I never really played the

game. Mainly because the 3 cushion players never bet unless

they were champions.
RG: You have a reputation as a great game maker. Tell us about it.
BR: Well, I hustled pool all my life, but I always worked. I was selling

Mirro Cookware. I would bring the cookware in and set it on the

table and show everybody my business card. I'd tell them the stuff

was left over from the home show and that we normally sold them for

$60, but because they were left over we were letting them go for $40.

I'd never say anything about playing pool. But most of the time someone

would challenge me to play for the cookware. They'd put up $40 and

the cookware only cost me $20. They were giving me 2-1 on the money

and hardly anyone can beat me that way. You'd be surprised at the

people who couldn't even run three balls who tried to win that cookware

set. Occasionally, I'd run into good players, but it didn't matter because

they were giving me 2-1 on the money. But most of the time I'd catch

people who couldn't play at all. I never mentioned gambling or anything.

I would approach them, tell them what I had and start for the door if no

one seemed interested. One of the guys would always say, "Hey, I'll play

a game of pool for that cookware." So that was my gimmick to get people

to play. I sold a lot of cookware too. I was underselling the stores. I was

making my expenses with the pots and pans, but I made more on the pool

tables. Selling cookware meant that I always had money in my pocket, so

I was never under pressure. I didn't have to worry about going broke
because I always had merchandise to sell.
RG: Tell us about your disguises.
BR: I used to use a truck driver's uniform with a big wallet on a chain. I got

a truck driver's uniform from Sears. I'd come out of that long wallet with

a $20 bill and people would think there were thousands in there. I don't

know why that is, but people think there's a lot in one of those big wallets.

So I'd go in and flash some Money. I had a real good gimmick for getting

people down. If I saw two guys playing for $5 a game, I'd watch them for

a while to make sure I could win. Then I'd go up to the table and challenge

them for a drink. The guy would say, "Hey, we're playing for $5 a game."

So I'd walk away from the table and wait about ten minutes before
I went back and challenged them for a drink again. People would get

indignant. They'd say, "We're playing for $5. If you want to challenge,

you've got to play for $5!" That's when I'd put the move on them. I'd say,

"I don't gamble, but if you want to bet, I'll go you one for $55." Then I'd

turn around and walk back to the bar like I was bluffing. All of a sudden

they'd come right out with the money and play for $50. A move like this

is very strong because you originally wanted to play for a drink and
then you came back asking to play for $55. It's a hell of a psychological

move. If people have money, there's no way they won't play in that spot.

They always stop you before you get back to the bar.
RG: You are one of the master psychologists of game making. Could

you tell us about that?
BR: I learned those moves from watching people who couldn't play.

They were suckers. They were the ones who came up with the moves.

I had been playing for $10 a game and had a sucker come up. We told

him "We are playing for $10 a game." So the guy says, "Well, I'll play

you one for a $100." But the guy was bluffing and when I agreed to play

he would just walk away. That's where I got that move from. The only

difference is that I wasn't bluffing. The players thought I was trying to

save face when I didn't back down. RG: I must admit that it's one of

the best tactics for starting a money game that I've ever seen. I busted

a few joints using the same method.
RG: Tell us more about the action you got into.
BR: I got trapped one time in Miami. I have a gimmick where I put a

patch over the guy's eye and spot him the five and the break playing

9–ball. If the guy plays my speed, I figure to beat him like that because

you can't judge distance and depth. It throws you way off. So I'm giving

this black guy down in Miami the five and the break. I play him safe

on the end rail and boom, he pops the eight in. I figured he must have

lucked the ball in. The next game, boom, he pops the five in from the
end rail. That's when I realized my mistake. I told him, "Man, if you want

to play anymore, you have to put the patch on the other eye. I know you

are blind in one eye."
RG: One-eyed players seem to cut the balls pretty good.
BR: They shoot good. the only thing they can't do is long distance shots.

I know people with one eye and they can't shoot long shots. It tires them

in a long session. RG: 8 ball has always been the main game in bars.

What do you think about 8 ball?
BR: I always wanted to play 8 ball because if you play 9 ball with a

mediocre player you lose when you don't run out from the 4 or 5 ball.

But in 8 ball you never have to run more than three balls to win. You

keep blocking the pockets and make sure they can't get out. That

way you don't expose yourself.
RG: Do you have any advice for playing 8 ball?
BR: I break and look at the table. If in my mind I wouldn't bet even

money that I could run out, then I don't even try to get out. I'm talking

about playing with a good player. Against a person who can't play,

I never try to run out from the break. But against good players, unless

I can bet even money that I'll get out, I won't even try. It's like playing

checkers. If you are one ball up and you keep trading off, when
you come down to the end you'll get the first shot to win the game.

You try to get his balls off then you play safe. I like to make my

opponent's balls and leave my balls where he has no shots. Now

he can't win because I have too many options for playing safe.
8 ball is the best game in the world to play. Actually, one pocket

is the best game, but very few people play it. 8 ball is played

everywhere. When they came up with one foul 8 ball that was the

best thing that ever happened to the game because I play a lot of

strategy.
RG: What do you think about call shot 8 ball?
BR: You get too many beefs with that game. A guy will say,

"You hit the wrong ball. It didn't go the way you called it." There's

too many arguments when you have to call everything.
RG: How long were you on the road?
BR: Off and on, my whole life, except when I was married.

I was still hustling, but I stayed in Miami and worked as a bellhop.

I did that for 15 years. I didn't make any road trips, but after work

I'd go around the bars a lot. RG: Who were some of your opponents?
BR: Well, no one ever beat me playing 8 ball in a bar. Not when I

was playing my best. Of course, I didn't go around looking for

champions either. I ran into some good players by accident, but

if I knew a guy was a strong player I wouldn't mess with him.
I trapped a lot of people getting odds. I was real good at that. I'd

try to get the last ball off or something like that. I'd put on a little show

with somebody. I'd spread and they'd beat me the first game. I'd act

like I was scared and end up getting a couple of balls off. This was

years ago, so they didn't know what balls off meant. Even strong

players didn't know the strength of getting balls off in 8 ball.
RG: Tell us about putting out a spread.
BR: I'd have somebody who knows me go in there and play the

guy we're trying to catch. They'd play for $5 a game or whatever.

Then I'd come in with my routine about wanting to play for a drink.

So I'd get down with my buddy for a $105 and have him beat me

in front of the guy we're trying to catch. I'd let the sucker hold the

money. So my buddy says, "OK I'll give you the last two balls." I

say, "No, I've got to have the last three." So in the second game

my pal beats me real bad. I'm not playing at all. Then he shoots

at my ball and plays a safety. Now this is years before they played

one foul. So he shoots my ball to play safe and I start screaming
that he doesn't play fair. He beats me that game and I quit.
So my friend says, "Alright, we'll play so that if I hit your ball, you

can put the cue ball anywhere." I'd say, "No, you shot my ball. I

quit." So then the guy we're trying to catch jumps up and offers

me two balls off. I say, "OK, but if you don't hit your ball, I can set

the cue ball anywhere." Like I just picked the idea up from my

friend. If we play that way, I can beat the guy with no strain.

With the last three, there's no way you can lose on a bar table,

unless you fall dead. With the last two off, there's a chance a

champion might beat you. But with the last three, I ain't never

been beat. I trapped Keith McCready a while back. He gave me

the last three balls and went broke. That's strong. But on a big

table you can still lose. I learned how to play 8 ball from the blacks

in the Hill District. They knew all the moves.
RG: What's the difference between 8 ball on a big table and a

bar table?
BR: There's not a big advantage in getting balls off on a big table

for me because I don't figure to get out. You have to run out. You

can't stall on a big table because the balls are open. They aren't

clustered. Because the balls are a lot more congested on a bar

table there's a lot more safety play. On the bar table, if you don't

get all the way out, you're going to lose against a good player.

The biggest mistake is trying to run out when you can't get out.

You may look like a champion and lose. The guy who moves well

may not look like he can play, but he wins.
I played a black guy called "Country." (Charles "Country" Monroe

from NY) He played strong 8 ball. He played where you could shoot

at any ball. You could shoot the other guy's balls in and there was no

cue ball in hand. He robbed me like that because if you play shoot

at anything, there's no advantage in strategy. When we played by

my rules, he had no chance. A guy came down to Miami from Canada

when I was playing good. I was playing snooker everyday on a 6 x 12. I

played by his rules where the cue ball doesn't have to hit a rail and he

robbed me. Then we played where a ball did have to hit a rail
and he couldn't beat me. It's just what you're used to playing.

to be continued... end of part 1